The Jersey Devil | Cryptid Folklore & Paranormal History

1735 Pine Barrens, New Jersey. The Leeds, a poor family, live in a small cabin in the woods, already struggling to feed their 12 children. Mother Leeds finds that she is pregnant with child number 13. She curses the child, screaming out, let it be the devil. Months go by, and on a dark, stormy night, with her family and several midwives around her, Mother Leeds gives birth to what seems to be a healthy baby boy. After a few minutes, the child begins to cry out. Suddenly sprouting horns and a tail. Fur begins to grow from his skin and wings appear from his back. His eyes burn with a fiery red glow. The child begins to fly around the room and lets out loud screeches, finally flying up the chimney and disappearing into the Pine Barrens. Could this be the reason for the many disappearances and killings of both humans and animals in area over the past almost 300 years? If you find yourself amongst the pines of rural New Jersey and you hear strange howls, screams or cries, be careful, because it just might be the Jersey Devil. Sam,.

Welcome to the no Such Things Ghost podcast. My name is Greg. You just heard Andy in the intro talking about the Jersey Devil. If you haven't listened to the show before, I'm a hardline skeptic. Andy, how would you describe yourself?

I just think this is really cool.

All right, well, tell me more about this Jersey Devil.

The Jersey Devil, also known as the Leeds Devil, playing off the family we heard of in the intro.

Oh, okay. I thought we were going. I thought we were going across the pond.

We will stay tuned.

Okay.

No Jersey Devil all across New Jersey, Pennsylvania, taking up that whole area. There's been this legend for hundreds of years, different sightings. The story I told gives it the name the Leeds Devil. It's supposedly from that family. Is it a descendant? Is it multiple descendants? Who knows? It has various descriptions.

Tell me those, because I would like to know what this Jersey Devil is.

So sometimes detailed with the body of a kangaroo.

Why?

With the long tail.

Okay. All right.

And the two legs, it likes to hop.

Cool. When it's very, very. When it's on land. Very menacing. When it's on land. It's aquatic.

No, it goes to the sky because it also has bat wings.

Jesus. Okay.

You know, so it flies. It has the head of a horse or a goat, possibly a donkey. I mean, it's seen in the dark in the woods a lot. So all those kind of fit the same mold.

Okay.

It has horns, it has hooves. It's usually described with small arms, with possibly claws or paw like hands. T. Rex Arms, maybe? Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah, definitely on the smaller side.

Okay.

And bright red eyes. Whether it's reflective or they glow depends on the description.

This is a big hodgepodge of animals.

Slapped together and that is the key to it. It is described as multiple things in one. It can move pretty quickly, whether it's running or flying. It has a high pitched, curdling blood curdling scream. Okay, so it definitely stands out in the pine barrens of New Jersey. Are you familiar with this area?

No.

So it's forested, mostly pines. There is other fauna that grows. It's a sandy surface.

Oh, okay.

It's. It's a large area spanning throughout New Jersey that isn't really inhabited. Okay, so it's, it's just a large forested area. So usually it's, you know, campers or hunters, someone like that will encounter it. Although it has been encountered in, you know, the bigger cities in the area across New Jersey and even into Philadelphia, New York, the surrounding areas. So it, it's kind of a big area that it, that it has been sighted in. It seems to be a woodland creature, but it does like the water, that there is water surrounding the entire area. So I mean, maybe you're right, maybe it is aquatic.

Who knows? I mean, it's a big, it's a little bit of everything.

So I guess transforming hybrid animal. Maybe it has a little part fish in there. Who knows?

I mean, if we're gonna, if we're just gonna cram together different kind of animals, I mean, might as well. I mean, nothing's off limits here. We can just. It's got the, the head of a donkey, the face of a rodent, the.

I don't know, a little bit of everything.

A little bit. Just a little bit of everything.

A little. We have a large amount of sightings over the years here, culminating in 1909. The January 16th kicks off the biggest week of reported sightings of the creature.

Wait, wait, what?

Every year, sporadic. It's reported off and on through the hundreds of years like it's a common folktale in the area. Okay, so it's passed down for generations where, you know, we're 1909, we're skipping almost 200 years there to get to there. But that's the biggest week, January 16th. It's a big celebration. It's a big coming out party for the Jersey Devil.

Okay.

Yeah, yeah. It kicks off. There's strange hoof prints in the snow, including on the rooftops of South Jersey. So it's coming into the city. It's the wintertime there's snow everywhere. They're seeing weird hoofprints, even on rooftops. So Santa Claus, he's a little late.

Oh, okay.

But, I mean, maybe he had to come back and he forgot a couple things.

He forgot. They left a few things in the sled.

The newspapers are reporting it. There's pets and chickens being killed along with descriptions of the devil being sighted in the area. The Philadelphia Zoo posts a drawing, which we'll have in the show notes.

Okay.

And they offered a $10,000 reward for the capture of the beast. Nobody collected it.

Well, why else would they post a $10,000 reward? Because they knew nobody was gonna.

Big money in 1909.

Yeah. They knew nobody was gonna capture it.

So one of the big sightings, policeman James Sackville, he's walking his beat in Bristol, Pennsylvania, towards Buckley and Carson streets. And he heard dogs barking and howling, so he decided to check it out. He turned down towards the canal and he sees a creature just looming over the canal. He starts walking towards it, draws his pistol and then starts running at it. The creature turns and hops down the canal and then takes flight. Sackville got off a couple of rounds when it got close to the ground, but didn't apparently hit it, and he scared it away. It soared away into the night. He described it as having wings, hooves. It hopped around like a bird and took off, much like a bird with those other animal features, the same ones we talked about. Right. Looked like a goat or horse, had.

Hooves, so on and so forth.

Yeah. He said it had a terrible scream. And then it was just very, quote, peculiar looking.

Cool. Yeah.

So we have a policeman. There's multiple. Multiple sightings this week. This. It's on a rampage through the Jersey and Pennsylvania areas. Like it's becoming a thing.

Yeah. Okay. I mean, I guess people are making drawings of it and putting in the newspaper, and the zoo's offering rewards. And then I. I don't. There's not a lot of things I can say because this is so obviously goofy.

I mean, they're seeing something. Are they?

Well, you always say that stuff. You're always saying, well, somebody is seeing something.

There's sightings all the way from. From Philadelphia to Camden, New Jersey.

Can I say. Can I say something?

No, go ahead.

I don't care. I don't care what the sightings are. You can't. People are seeing things. You can't. You always say that thing like, well, somebody saw something. Maybe they didn't see anything. Is that ever a possibility?

That.

No, they saw nothing because this is something that people don't see because it's. It's obviously not real.

Could it be people making up stories based on one person's description?

We always.

Could it be the folklore of the area? And people are like, oh, we need attention to it. It's awfully weird that they were so many sightings within a week span with.

The same description within the week span of them publishing a picture of it in the newspaper.

But there were sightings before the publishing of the picture.

I get it. But they probably really exploded after the newspaper put a picture out. Then everybody knew what the picture was. They described it the same way. And then the zoo gets in on the fun. It's the reason why they were going $10,000 to give us a Jersey Devil. Because they knew nobody was gonna capture Jersey Devil. Because.

Because he's so elusive.

No, because it real. I know some of it is because you're not trying to discount anything so many people see. What exactly did they see? They didn't see anything. They were just making up stories.

So you're saying it could be mass hysteria?

I don't think it's mass hysteria. I don't think it's. Everybody.

A bunch of people lying.

Yeah, it's a whole lot of people lying. And then maybe a small percentage of people who have a habit of seeing things that don't exist. There's. You. Just because somebody says they. Oh, just because there is an account and there's an eyewitness account of something that the eyewitness doesn't mean. I don't care what the profession is, how upstanding of a citizen they are, what. What their education level is.

I try to give you a little bit more respectable.

I know.

Eyewitness.

I get it. But it doesn't matter who they are. It does not matter because everybody is capable of.

Just everyone is capable of being a little bit crazy and crazy. Mistaken identification.

Right.

We'll talk about that. There's other things that could be.

You've got to. And people too, that are susceptible to these kind of things might. It might be nothing. It might be something more innocent. They see something. This guy pulls at his firearm and starts to shoot at it. You know, that could have been it. Could have. It could have been anything other than that. And he. His brain is forcing him to go.

Maybe he was tired, maybe. Or it just didn't happen.

Or the most likely thing is it didn't happen. His story never happened. And just because somebody gives somebody account of something means nothing. It's. It's just something that somebody said.

Okay, well, let's. All right, let's move on to some more. This one you're gonna enjoy. I'm sure it's. It's a notable sighting. Okay, we're gonna. We're gonna talk about some history again.

Oh, I love it. Good.

I know you love it when I bring up past empires and regimes.

Ooh.

I know we've talked about some that are not very popular in past episodes. Let's talk about Napoleon.

Okay, cool. Let's go.

Familiar with him? Are you familiar with his brother, Joseph Bonaparte?

No.

Okay, well, he was the King of Naples from 1806 to 1808. King of Spain from 1808 to 1813.

Cool.

Due to his brother and the power that he rose to, Napoleon had appointed him to these positions. Some things happened and he got exiled.

This is sounding a little bit familiar, but go ahead. Yeah, sure.

So he got kicked out of the. Eventually all of Europe, had to come to America.

Okay.

Settled a couple times. New York and Philly just finally settles in Bordenton, New Jersey.

Okay.

In 1820.

Okay.

So, you know, his family is gone. They're still in Europe. He's all over here, all alone. He buys himself an estate. And one day he's hunting alone in the woods, and he saw some strange tracks and he decided to follow them. He described them as horse or donkey tracks, but it was walking on two legs. It obviously did not have four prints together. It was a two legged animal that looked like the tracks of a horse or a donkey. He followed them until they ended abruptly and he stopped. And he's looking around, investigating. Where could it have gone? Did he lose the trail? And he's standing there a few minutes and he hears this strange hissing noise behind him. When he turns around, he comes face to face with something he's never seen before. It had a long neck, wings, legs like a crane, and hooves. It had stumpy arms with paws and a face like a horse or a camel. He froze, staring face to face at this creature. And neither one of them moved for a minute. Finally, the devil hissed again and suddenly just flew away, just rose up. He went back to town. He told his friends about it. They informed him of the legend, which he apparently hadn't heard of before, of the Jersey Devil. And from the rest of his time that he lived there until 1839, he was off hunting. It never apparently found it again or encountered it again, but it left an impact on him. He told his friends who informed him of the legend, which he apparently didn't know at that point. He's known to have been on the hunt for the creature until he returned to Europe in 1839, but apparently did not see it or find any trace of it.

Again, that's all well and good. I, I appreciate all the stories that you're providing to me.

I'm not, I'm not claiming this is evidence of the creature. No, I'm just, I, I, I like to connect a little bit of this to history.

I appreciate you telling me this story. That's all well and good, like this person, like Joseph Bonaparte's account, but it doesn't make it any more factual.

No, I, I'm not saying this proves it by any means. That doesn't. Just because he's related to Napoleon doesn't make it more factual. I just like to bring a little bit of history into these. Like, I find it interesting when someone of somewhat of importance, notoriety agrees with these things and has seen these things. Who's to say he's not as crazy as Bill Bullobush from Texburg?

Good old Bill.

Bullet Bush, we love that man.

Love that man. Don't know anything about him.

We don't know if he's crazy. We don't know if Joseph Bonaparte is crazy. We don't know what they saw or what they didn't see.

But you bring up something interesting with talking about Bullet Bush and his sighting. If you listen to that episode, you could, if you listen to that episode, I definitely said, oh, something crashed, right? Something fell to the earth and landed there. I didn't really dispute that. This, the Jersey Devil doesn't seem like something. It's outside of the realm of possibility and something falling to the earth. And this is a little bit different. Definitely very different.

This could be something that there's a tale that was told in the area. For whatever reason, this story came to be believed by the locals. And then things are seen. Could it be mistaken identity? Let's talk about some of the things that maybe are natural occurrences that it could be. Well, one thing that people that are believers like me are going to hear repeatedly, you're going to love this animal by the time we're done. Is the sandhill crane.

Yeah. Okay. Yeah, it's a big crane. It's got long legs.

It's very long legs.

Big, long feet, long neck, big wingspan,.

Could be as tall as a human.

They get pretty big.

Like some of them are close to the average human height. So this is something that non believers, and I mean even believers go, hey, are you sure it wasn't A sandhill crane.

Yeah.

We can post some photos of that for those that are non familiar. Like, it is a big bird. It could be mistaken for a Jersey Devil. In a. On a dark night, you're caught by surprise. Maybe you're already filled with fear. It's definitely something to bring up. They could be in the area. Then there's a little bit more fantastical. Something that's not native to the area but is a natural animal. Does fit some of the description. Maybe it's a kangaroo. Could it have escaped from a circus or. Or the zoo or something? That's a possibility.

I don't see how it.

I mean, well, there are accounts across the country of phantom kangaroo sightings across the U.S. it's not a natural animal, but there are weird collectors that get illegal animals. There are escapes, there are.

I'm just saying that the Kangar only matches in certain aspects. I think the most characteristic of it would be the wings. Right? Because, yeah, you could have something long, tall, skinny. When you first gave me the description of it, I was kind of like, oh, it looks. You said you led with kangaroo. Right. Which I get. But the wings adds another element to it. Like I would. The wings would be the most characteristic thing to me.

And that doesn't fit, obviously with a kangaroo.

No.

The body type could. With the two big legs at the bottom, short legs on top, the long tail. Are people mistakenly saying it's flying away or did it just disappear into the woods? I'm not saying it perfectly fits.

I would hope that the residents of the area would know what a sand hill crane looks like. Right?

You would think so. You're also considering moments of maybe stress or terror. Are they shocked that the bird popped out? Are they as surprised as the bird is, or the kangaroo or the Jersey Devil, whatever it is, I get it.

But here's back to that human problem that I always have is jumping to the conclusion that it is the Jersey Devil, right? Instead of going, oh man, that's probably a big bird. I can understand if it's dark and a big bird just happens to be around you or startles you, and your initial reaction is like, oh, what we got? Like, you know what I mean? That initial moment of that panic that happens for that split second and then your wits come about you and then you go, oh, big bird. That's that sandhill crane. Why the people that are so sold on the Jersey Devil thing, the people that are the least reliable narrators, okay, because they are the ones. That's the first thing they go to the first thing. Oh, that's a big monster thing. They're the people that are reporting this because they're the ones that are shooting at him. It's. It's ev. I don't know anything about Joseph Bonaparte, but if he was an alarmist or.

Not believe the story. He didn't know anything about the Jersey Devil. He had just moved here.

I don't believe the story. I don't believe the story. I don't believe the. Maybe the story. Maybe the. The. I don't believe the timeline. I just don't considering somebody off the fact.

You believe. He heard. He heard about the story, which is a. He's going from ability.

He's going. He's. He's a. The King of Naples.

He. Well, he was King of Naples and then the King of Spain. He got promoted. He got demoted and promoted at the same. There's a lot of things that happen there. That's a different podcast.

He then became exiled. So then he's going to the United States and trying to make his way there, starting from the ground up, which is like Trump saying he got a loan from his father for a million dollars to start a business.

He's a popular guy.

Yeah, I get it. But he's also coming in, trying to make a name for himself.

So you're saying the way that he comes over here and stakes his claim to fame is by going saw that devil?

Yeah, well, he's engrossing himself because he came here and I'm sure he had a pet. I had a way to make money. So he probably opened a business and everything. He's trying to be a member of.

He still had money because he was exiled by his brother.

I get it. But he's also trying. And he wasn't overthrown.

He tried to put himself out.

He's trying to be part of the community. And then how do you become part of the community? You kind of add their local legends and tales. Like, he's. He's just. He's blending in. He's becoming one of them. Or, like, I think that's a lot of it. Like. And plus, I can't. I don't know if there's an article or a memoir written by Joseph Bonaparte that says, I specifically saw the Jersey Devil went up. No, it's a story.

When he saw it, he didn't know it was the Jersey Devil. He just thought it was a weird thing.

I get it. But there's nothing that I can't go back into his diary and go on this day When I came here.

Let's see after the show if we can call him up, get the Ouija board out. Yeah, talk to Joseph Bonaparte. Let's do it and see what he says about it. All right, so we've talked about the possible live animals that it could be. I mean, I guess technically it'd be just a horse running through the woods and somebody thought it flew away. I don't know how you also jump into conclusions because it shouldn't fly. I think if you're going to look at a reasonable live animal, I guess the sandhill crane is the most.

Is the most.

Forgive me, listeners, I know you hate that one. Like if. But if we're looking at a live animal, that's the most likely one. Now let's look at a little bit of mythological equivalence.

Okay.

Just, you know, like I like to do, touch upon some things that means that have across the globe that might have some that have no connections.

But then we make some tenuous connections.

I think some of these have some good connections.

I'll be the judge of that.

I know you will. You're gonna judge harshly. Let's go to Scottish folklore. First, the kelpie. It's a shape shifting spirit that inhabits Locks.

What?

It is a black horse like creature able to adapt to human form, possibly even retaining the hooves when it's in human form. Because we don't want it to, you know, be able to just completely.

No, gotta have something to tell about.

Be a human imposter. You gotta go, oh, that's weird.

You got hooves, bud.

Yeah, so. And of course, the most famous of these, which you might not pick up the connection just by the normal folklore of it. Nessie.

I knew that was coming up.

Nessie is.

You want to know why I knew that was coming up? Is because as soon as you said you went from shape shifting, which means it could be anything, number one. So we took the most easy route. And then you said it inhabits Locks. And then I was like, oh, he's going to tell me that the Loch Ness monster is actually there's a shape shifting.

Go to Scottish folklore. Almost every lock has a legend associated with it. With a kelpie.

I get it. It's.

I'm just saying it's horse shaped.

It's horsesh.

A possible horse creature.

It's not. I mean. Okay, yeah, go ahead.

It is. No, it's 100% a horse creature.

It's not real.

It's a legend. But that's multiple cultures that have like a globe.

How convenient. Okay.

Okay, the next one I'm assuming you've heard of is a Chimera.

Yes.

It's a Greek creature. A monstrous fire breathing hybrid. It's composed of different animal parts. Usually it's depicted as a lion.

Yeah.

With the head of a goat protruding from its back. Not identical, but no, similar. It has a tail.

Yep.

And possibly other creatures mixed in there. Depending.

Depending on who's telling.

Chimera has become just a description.

A mess of animals shoved together.

So similar. Not exactly the same. The wyvern.

Oh, a dragon.

It's an English creature.

It's like a big. It's a dragon, basically.

Yeah, it's a dragon.

It's not usually a full blown dragon.

It's usually depicted as smaller and it's.

More two legs, snakey like. It's more snake like. Yeah, yeah.

So this one kind of fits closer to what we're talking about with the Jersey Devil. She has big legs in the back. Not necessarily depicted with small legs. Arms in the front. Wings.

Wings.

Big long tail. Could be a horsehead. A dragon.

I've never seen a wyvern.

I mean a dragon when you picture one, has kind of a horse like head.

Okay.

If you're.

But here's the problem. Can I say that here the problem is dragons aren't real either. Loch Ness Monster isn't real. Chimeras aren't real.

You're offending a lot of people.

I don't care. Because it's. I mean, you're telling me all these things that it relates to, which are.

All full clear that are also legends, that come from different cultures, that legends,.

Folklore, stories, all stories. Stories start stories and make believe can't support other stories and make believe. But I can't have fiction supporting fiction.

The fact that people say they saw.

Things, I don't care.

Different cultures, I don't. Across different lands, nothing seas.

These are not similar creatures either. These are not similar creatures.

They are very similar. They're hybrid creatures.

That means nothing. It doesn't take a creative human mind to go, what happens if you shoved a bunch of animals together? That, that's nothing. Just because stories are similar and some.

Of them are very similar. Descriptions maybe not exact, but it's coming from different cultures.

You are trying to find patterns in places. There are no patterns.

You're finding this. You're trying to find discounting patterns in the patterns I'm displaying.

No, it's obvious that these things are not the differences.

They are very similar. There's, by the way, the, the wyvern. Wyvern however you say.

I don't know how exactly to pronounce it.

That will be important. So we're gonna. We're gonna come back to that.

Okay.

Okay. Okay. So we're gonna look at das book Dead Natur. The book of nature.

Of nature. Okay.

The book of. Very good.

I mean, it's easy.

Yeah. Medieval Latin, Compendium of Science. It was translated into German in the 14th century. Okay. Pictures, drawings. In this book, I'm already. Of various hybrid creatures. This will also be in the show notes.

Okay.

So we can. Everybody can look at this. One of them, if you look in the top corner, looks very much like a horse with two legs and wings. So another description of a similar creature. Now, the other creatures are also various hybrids of things.

This is nothing. This is an artist having.

But there is one artist that decided this was a thing.

I'm going to shove this one together.

In the 14th century.

None of it matters, though. How. It's not salient.

I'm not saying it's complete evidence. I'm saying it's not. It's multiple cultures describing similar things.

That's what all people. I mean, I talked about this before. All people are the same. All people from across the globe have the same ideas. We're not as creative as we think we are. We're not as different as what we think we are. Fiction supporting fiction. Guess what that is? It's still fiction.

It's not fiction. It's folklore, which is fiction, which is stories that are passed down that could be expanded upon or dramaticized, but for.

The most part, it's fiction.

Usually originate from something.

Fiction.

I will grant you that most of the folklore that has been passed down has been elaborated upon or changed significantly. But it's usually something that it comes from.

It comes from something, but it usually doesn't come from actually seeing a scary monster. It usually comes from a place of explaining why things happen. You know what I mean? This is not on the same level as this folklore. But like, if you look at the cautionary tales or like the nursery rhyme stuff or, you know, you talk about the big bad wolf, right? Little Red Riding Hood, right. It's not a real story. It's a real big wolf. Didn't dress up as grandma and Trick. Like none of that stuff really happened. But it's trying to give you lessons, right? Or it's try or. Or a story's trying to explain why something happens or how to keep something from happening. It's not about. You can't take the story and Go. Oh man, there must have been a wolf that ate a grandma and dressed up like her. You can't go, well, that supports werewolves because that doesn't make any sense. It's. It's a tail to teach you something. It's not a tale to prove that a horse faced kangaroos with bat wings and hooves existed.

I'm also going to say that maybe you didn't find evidence of werewolves because they turned back into humans and so you found human remains.

I'm going to edit that out.

I thought that was very funny. Why would you edit that out?

No, I'm going to leave that in there. I was saying I'm going to edit.

That out to add to the joke.

Okay, I'm going to leave that.

I was getting very upset. I really wanted to say that.

No, I'm going to leave the whole thing in there. Including me. Sam, edit that out.

Okay. Yeah. All right. So we've talked about.

I might leave that whole part in like this entire thing.

Me be upset about. You edit. Cool. So we talked about the, the wyvern being important. Wyvern, I don't know how it's pronounced. Yeah, the dragon like creature. So let's talk about a little maybe counterpoint to the original story. Let's go back to that story that I told the Leeds family. So that family is important in the area. There, there are records of that family. Daniel Leeds was a Quaker in New Jersey who published the American Almanac in 1687. He was a Quaker who settled in the area, became a little bit maybe rambunctious against the Quaker theology. And so the American Almanac contained some symbols, language, names, along with some astrological data that was a little bit too pagan for the Quakers. So they started to turn against him a little bit. They eventually ordered that all of his almanacs were to be destroyed. They collected them all, burned them. You know what we do here in America, we don't like it, we get rid of it.

Yeah. We hate books.

Yeah. So he decided to take a stand. He broke away from the Quakers and he continued to publish this almanac and several other books that were continuously more anti Quaker, which just upset them even more. It didn't make him a very popular guy in this area. So in 1716, he retired from publishing and left the business to his son. His son Titan took over and he decided to redesign the COVID of the almanac, but to keep printing it. The new cover included their family crest. Here's where that's important. Their family crest included the Wyvern okay, so it's a. Basically a circle of this dragon like creature, this demon like creature, this devil like creature. You see where I'm going with this? Yeah, I get it. So Titan, then he continued to publish for a while and he became in this little feud with another almanac publisher who you might know, he's very famous American, Benjamin Franklin.

Benjamin Franklin, Yeah.

So this guy Benjamin Franklin, who is famous for many things, but he published the poor Richard's Almanac and he decided one day he wanted to get rid of the competition, so he targeted Titan. He predicted when Titan's death would be in one of these Poor Richard's almanacs. Unfortunately for him, the date passed and Titan lived. But Franklin decided to twist that and he called him out, he said, well, Titan actually died and that's his ghost or his demon, it's impersonating him. And he's decided to haunt his old friend Benjamin Franklin just out of pure evil, I guess.

Sure.

You know, so Benjamin Franklin comes up with this joke and he's printing all this. And we're in the early times here, so people are believing it, they're buying in. He of course passes that death date, doesn't die. The joke goes on shortly after this. Titan does die in 1738. Now if you notice, that's very close to the birthday of the Jersey Devil. So we could be getting a hint here of where that story could have originated. A little bit of a crossover there. You know, this guy has the wyvern, the devil, the demon on his almanac. He's being bad mouthed by a very famous American, Benjamin Franklin, probably more popular than Titan leads. And so maybe some stories came out that he was the devil, that he was the Jersey Devil. And, and then parents need a reason to tell their kids, hey, don't go in the woods at night. Leave the Pan Barons alone. There's a Jersey Devil out there. It was born to the Leeds family.

That all seems pretty reasonable.

I mean, that seems like a story that crosses over and creates an origin.

Yeah, that's exactly what that is. I mean, yeah, you have, like you said, a popular American figure who has some beef with a guy who's also a known storyteller and intellect and driving a narrative.

And his family was already being persecuted in a way because of his going against the Quakers.

The Quakers and his outlook, you know, freedom of religion. Well, very conservative society, you know, I mean, early America. Well, and continuing through the time, especially when it comes to religion, it's just a different time, you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. That all sounds great to me. Thank you.

You're welcome.

I don't really have to say that.

I thought I would add a little something to help you out.

I. I'm glad you did it because it makes that. That seems completely plausible to me. That sounds like the most reasonable thing.

I mean, I'm as interested in the history of this stuff as you are.

Yeah.

You know, there. There's basis to everything. Now, does that discount sightings in the area?

I think the sightings discount themselves. This is not a situation. You know, we've talked about some ghost stories. We've talked about aliens.

This is kind of our first gifted introduction.

This feels much more like a story.

This is very regional, but it's definitely.

This is definitely something that I keep reflecting back on the previous one we go to Bek. It feels. This feels like what that was trying to be. Now, Beck doesn't have as much time between it that the Jersey Devil does. Right. And it's not as regional and owned by the people of an area like this is. Right. And so when you get something that's in an area that is kind of traditional for the area. Right. It is, you know, you. We brought up folklore. You brought up folklore. It's very much like that. It's more of an identity for an area.

Right. And this is something like we talked about than it is anything else where it's. It's owned by the community. It's. It's definitely something they have. Have clung on to.

Hockey is a great example. Yes.

Kecksburg has the festival. There are similar things in. In the Jersey area, but they've. They've clung on to it. If you're familiar with the NHL, there's the New Jersey Devils.

Yes.

Just directly named after this creature. There's, you know, it's part of the.

Region, it's part of the people. Right.

They really love it. They embrace it.

But those people are also not believing that it's real.

It's.

It's.

Some of is. Some of it isn't. It's broader than the Kicksburg thing.

I mean, some of it is. Somebody isn't. I don't think. I think the group of people that believe it to be real are minute. A lot of it is just because it's a story. It's part of our area, it's part of our culture, and there it is.

And it's something that's caught on, you know, naturally pop. Culturally. There's a X Files episode that is loosely based on it. There's, you know, movies that reference it. There's. It's something that's caught on everywhere, but it is beloved in the area.

But I think a lot of the stories. Right. A lot of. A lot of the stories that I. That we have yet. You have yet to tell me. And a lot of the stories that you have told me can all fit snugly in that same kind of category. They're not. They, you know, you're closing it down to a certain area, to a certain group of people. Right. And I know there's. I do know this. There's cryptids all over the place. Yes, there's cryptids everywhere and everybody. And it's always very kind of regional in a way.

You're gonna see similarities between cryptids in different areas. There's obviously different variations of Bigfoot across the country that may vary regionally according to the environment.

But it's kind of. I mean, you were talking the, you know, a sports team being called that. It's kind of what it is for every region in the United States. It's kind of like, oh, that's our cryptid very much. It's not so much about the truthfulness of the story as it is about. Here's a weird, quirky thing that we embrace because it is part of our story, this. And again, I say story not as in their history, but as in a story that's been built up as we've, you know, settled and, And.

And part of it is we can make money off of this. Part of it is we can.

It's quirky, fun stuff.

And this is known for this. We can have fun with it. Like, there's a lot of that, definitely. And even if it is something that people believe, they're going to take advantage of it and try to make the area famous for it. Any way you can get an attraction, tourism built up, you're gonna see that regularly. Yes, but there are similarities between a lot of them.

Well, I know, but that's because the way. That's the way stories work too, because as a story is told one place, it starts to spread to another place.

But that doesn't mean they're transplant just because they're similar.

But I'm sure in a way, they are.

It is part of. There's not a reason set of being a human being. You're going to.

Yeah, but you got people that are going to be moving to other areas. They're. We taking these stories with them. And then people hear these stories. Then people create their own story around it for their area, like, and There. But there's so many factors that too, like they could be grown of their own, like of their own stories and then incorporate other stories, or they could be taken and then reappropriated for an area like. That's. That's all great. And the way a story spreads is. Is relevant, but yet irrelevant. I think the question is not the question, but the. I think the point is not a lot of people, a lot of people might know about a cryptid in their area because a sports team is named, but they're not believing that it's real. This is a fun thing for people to have fun with. That's in the background. I think the problem is, you know, the, the, the fringe is going, but this is. Because this is real. And I think that is the goofiest thing to do. This story has been fun. It's been unoffensive. I haven't gotten agitated about anything about it because it has been. It has been.

Interview. Who took the bet on the rant this week? Did you didn't win. You lost?

Because it wasn't. This is not something that needs a rant because I didn't really hear anything of anybody being. Other than some older accounts. I'd not really heard anything about anybody doubling down, going, that's absolutely real. And this is, it's kind of just. It's a folklore, it's a fairytale. It's a fun story for people in.

This one is a bit of a fun one, I will give you that. I'm not saying I discredit anybody's account.

And there might be people that go out and look for it, but I feel inside, I feel like people are going out and looking for it for fun. It's not a thing that reasonable people are expecting to find because they kind of know that it's not real, but they're having fun with the story, with the history of it. And I think that's great. That sounds like a fun adventure just to kind of go and do that. I have no problem with that. But I know and I would hope that most people would know that that's not real and that's fine. But the story in itself, I would.

Encourage you, if you believe in this stuff, to continue to believe. It's a fun thing to do. It's a fun thing to believe in. If it's real, it's real. If it's not, it's not.

I don't. There's no reason to leave it that open ended. I think there is, but. No, but this, hey, as much as you course corrected me on going, I have to be open minded about these things and everything else. Right. I can course correct to say while most of the time we are not going to have an answer or we're not going to be able to disprove a lot of stuff, it's obvious that this is storytelling over years and years and years and years.

There's definitely a lot of convoluted storytelling.

I don't think it's a problem even from your perspective as somebody who is. I am not open to these things.

Any sighting of anything.

I don't understand.

Maybe it's not all the same thing. Maybe it's crossovers. I'm not going to say there is a Jersey Devil that was born to mother Leeds in 1735.

Why isn't it okay to say there isn't a Jersey Devil? Why is that unacceptable to do?

No, no, no, no, no. I'm not saying it's the Jersey Devil.

No, no, no. But you're not.

You're not saying that it's not. But I'm not. But I'm not going to discount that people have seen something.

I don't care what they've seen. That's not what I'm talking about.

The Devil itself in quotes is a story that was concocted for the area, right.

That you're also leaving it so terribly open ended because you're non committal of going.

But that doesn't mean they haven't seen something.

I don't care what they've seen. They've saw something. But it wasn't a Jersey Devil.

Okay? I'm not saying it's a Devil. I'm not saying it's like you're being terribly wishy washy, terribly wish thing.

But you're right.

There could be things out there that we don't know.

This is not one of them.

This could be something other than a Jersey Devil.

This is not one of them. We,.

I mean there's so many sightings to say. And if you correlate from New Jersey to Washington to New England to Louisiana,.

I take it all back.

Things are being seen everywhere.

This story I think informs or gives us a good outlook for all the other stories and how stories work and how people. And I think not maliciously, I don't know how many times I have to say that. But through all the episodes we've done so far, not maliciously, but adding to the story, adding to the narrative, to add to the legend. Not for notoriety, not for fame, not for anything.

And it very well, could be on a lot of these.

I get it. But this right here is the prime example of how these things happen. We cannot. We cannot. And I would stress that we will not go just because somebody has seen something. There's no reason to say that you can't discount it because you can. We can't.

I'm not saying I discount or accept every story. What I'm saying is there's too many sightings across the world.

It does not matter. It doesn't matter.

There is nothing being cited that is not unexplainable. Can some of them be explained? Yes. Can they all be narrowed down to one thing? Is everybody in New Jersey seeing a Jersey Devil? No, I'm not saying that.

But you're saying that some people have.

Some people could have seen something. I'm not saying it's a Jersey Devil. I'm not saying it's a hybrid Chimera creature. I'm saying they could have seen something unusual. Maybe it's the same thing that people have seen in another part of the country that they call something else. I'm saying there are things that are unexplainable.

I don't think these are. I don't. I. But, but, but you're leaving it open for the possibility of something that is a kangaroo with wings.

I'm just saying that you can't.

I don't think that's.

You can't discount everything because of one regional story being fanatical. Because I don't.

I wasn't saying fanatical. I was just saying something that's ingrained in this society.

But not every story is because they heard this legend. Did they think it was a certain thing because of the legend?

The reason why there are so many sightings is because people were made aware of what was the story being told. And you're gonna say, oh, well, the story had to start from somewhere. Yeah, it started from somebody making up a story.

I even gave you discounts to the original.

And I know you did, but I don't think. I don't think that's healthy. I don't. I really don't think that is.

But I don't think it's acceptable for you to just go, everything is false. There is no unexplainable. Just because we have, I don't know,.

Urban legends and tales. No, I'm not trying to say that there's not things that may or may not be unexplainable. But there is an easy path. There's an easy progression that can be Made and this, and this kind of story of the Jersey Devil gives you a clear outline of how other stories kind of gain this momentum and this life and how they get ingrained into people, right? How they become part of the narrative, how they become part of who they are, right? Their identity a little bit.

And I am not contradicting any of that.

I get it. But what I'm trying to say is all these things kind of are building up like they're stacking together. The stories that you're telling me, the observations, they're all stacking up together and they're giving a clear picture of narrative, right? How people contribute to narratives. And like I said, it's not, doesn't have to be mean spirited, it doesn't have to be malicious in nature. But how that narrative, right, everybody feeds it a little bit of life and then it grows and then it sprouts and then it becomes like the roots kind of take hold everywhere and then it becomes not factual, but it becomes part of everything. Right?

And I get that, I get that the narrative stands. Everyone in this area has heard that story. And so maybe because of the human mind, you see something you can't explain.

And then you attribute it fits a.

Certain legend or you make it a certain story or you make it fit. Maybe not intentionally. It's not saying the person is lying and saying, I saw something with a kangaroo tail and bat wings.

I'm not even saying that either.

But if you see something strange and you already know a story is attributed to your area and you know the tales that other people have told, you're. You're going to conform it to that just because that's how your mind is going to perceive it. I'm not saying that, that, that you're complete. I think this story is a good starting point for us to kind of prove both sides. It is a story that says in this area we know this thing exists. And so from that known story, you're going to get stories of a sandhill crane that morphs into a kangaroo bat, goat man. And you're going to get stories of someone who saw what was not a sandhill crane that maybe they couldn't explain that still forms into that chimera object. Maybe it was something different. Maybe it was still an unknown creature.

Why does it have.

No, I'm just saying it fits both of our stories. It could be something that is known that is mistaken for something legendary, and it could be something unknown that is mistaken for something legendary. It kind of fits both narratives.

I get it.

I'm not saying that it that either one is right or that either one is wrong.

You're gonna make me feel bad because you're being so open minded and compromising and trying to see both sides of it.

This story fits that to a T.

But here's gonna be my counterpoint and it's gonna be really simple. Right? They did not see anything unknown.

But did they?

They did not see anything unknown.

We don't know.

I do know.

You don't know.

I do know.

You weren't there. You don't know.

It doesn't matter. Andy. I don't have to take anybody's word for it, especially when it's.

A man could go in the woods and say, I saw a deer.

Yes.

And he could be wrong.

Yeah. But if the man comes out and says, I saw a monster with the head of a goat and the body of a lion and the wings, I'm gonna go. You're an idiot. You need to seek mental like help immediately.

But the same man could go into the woods and say he was charged by a deer and ran out of the woods because he thought it was gonna gore him. But.

But I know a deer is. We've talked about this before. I know a deer is real.

We know a deer is real.

I don't.

But maybe he was mistaken. Maybe he's a normal hunter that goes into the woods and looks for deer and so he assumed it was a deer. But it wasn't.

What was it?

We don't know. It's unknown.

That does that. I'm gonna cut all that. I'm gonna legit cuddle that. No, because that doesn't make any sense. That makes no sense.

Why does that not make sense?

You know? Okay.

Because the human mind fixates on something that it knows.

I get it. But also fixates magical that it doesn't know.

But it. But it does.

That doesn't make any sense.

He could see something that he doesn't know what it is and go, that was a deer. Because I don't believe that there's something unknown. Whether it's a Jersey Devil or it's a Bigfoot or it's a Chimera. It doesn't matter. He knows he's going to hunt deer. This deer charged at him. He thought it was a deer. We don't know that it was.

Where is the fantastic story in that? Where is the thing that I'm telling.

You a basic story?

I get it. We don't know logic. What breaks logic there?

Nothing does.

Then it's different from somebody telling me a story about an animal that does not exist, and then me, I'm supposed to believe it. I know what a deer is. It doesn't know what a hunter is.

If it's not a deer, if it is stupid analogy.

That is a stupid analogy.

If it's unknown.

But what's unknown about a deer.

But it wasn't a deer.

Because you're adding layers of complexity to something for no reason, it's no different. No, it's different because the person telling the story is telling me something that doesn't exist. That is fantastic.

But you assume that it's a deer because he told you it's deer and you know a deer is real.

Andy, that does not make any sense.

I'm not saying it is something what.

You're telling me, but it could be those two. What you're telling me does not correlate.

It does correlate.

No, it does not.

It exactly correlates.

I'll leave all this up and have reasonable people completely tell you that you're wrong because that story is completely different than from somebody telling me a story about something that could not happen versus something that may happen. Right. A deer may charge me if I'm in the woods hunting.

Correct.

But an animal does not match anything in the continental United States and has not been discussed. And there's. There's no reason that it would exist. And we don't have any record of it actually existing. And then somebody puts together an amalgamation of different animals for shits and giggles and then goes, I saw that. I have no reason to believe that person versus a likely scenario. And the most unlikely scenario. The most unlikely scenario is somebody seeing a mythical creature versus somebody encountering a real creature that we know about. Because you have to base things off of what you know, not what you want to know or what I'm not. Weirdos say they think they know.

I'm not saying that mythical creatures are real.

You're trying to give me an argument.

What I'm saying is if a hunter goes into the woods, let's. Let's give it something even more compatible. If a hunter goes into the woods, he knows what a bear looks like. He gets charged by something that is large, hairy, running on two feet.

Yeah.

And he tells me, I was charged by a bear.

Okay.

You naturally are going to believe that he thinks it's a bear.

Yeah.

But could it not be a Bigfoot? A Bigfoot is described as a bipedal, hairy, large question.

Can I ask you a question? Why, when the guy told me was a bear. Why would you jump the conclusion of calling it a Bigfoot?

I'm not jumping to that conclusion. I'm saying it's the same scenario.

It's not. It's not.

If he's going into the woods and he expects to see a bear that.

No, no.

Then he would describe it as a bear. But maybe he was mistaken also. Just because the person who goes into the woods or goes outside their house and doesn't know.

So at this point what you're telling me is this, this is your outlook on the world which is a. The outlook of a dullard.

Why is that?

Now listen, what if we prove that big.

So it's a real.

It's not real Andy. It's perfectly odd. I know you want to live in this little world where fun stuff happens.

We species all the time. It definitely could be real. That's the point of the show used to discuss.

You don't find, you don't find seven foot monkey man randomly in the United States in a boreal area. You're going to find insects. You're not going to find a giant monkey man because it would have already been seen. And here's the next.

It has been seen.

I've, I've, I've seen a few of them and it's a dude in a costume. But what I'm trying to say is you're going to take a reasonable story from somebody and then, then put on the fantastical. If that's your magical way of thinking then you just, just go live at Disney World or something like don't live in a magical land. There is no reason to say here's a logical story. Let me go ahead and add some crazy stuff to it. Just you thought you saw what you think you thought you saw. But no, that was a Bigfoot. That is the dumbest damn thing I've ever heard in my entire life. That is the story. Always head up their ass and their butt in the clouds.

I'm not always saying it's a bigfoot just because someone gets chased out of the woods by a bear. I'm just saying on the same note, if someone goes into the woods and sees something fantastical then why on the other note couldn't someone go into the.

Woods because one is based in reality.

But believe. If they're not going in believing that big feet are real. Big foot, big feet, big feet, big.

Foots, big fights, whatever the plural is.

If they're not believing they're real then they're going to see a Bear. But is it a bear?

Why is that even an argument? Because I know that bears exist 99.9% of the time.

If they see a bear, okay, it's a bear.

This is stupid, though, because we're talking about something that is not any different. Yes, it is.

No, it's not.

Because one thing is real and one thing isn't.

But we. We don't know. We do know this for a fact. We do.

We do.

Bigfoot, Bigfoots.

Big Fi.

Big Man.

Big Man.

We don't know he's not real.

We do.

We at this point, believe he may not be real.

Do we have Bigfoot skeletons? Do we have Bigfoot taxidermied in a museum? Do we have.

There are many explanations for that that we will go into in Big Feet's episodes.

I don't know how much this is actually gonna stay because we.

I'm just saying.

But that is ridiculous. Andy. You can't.

It is ridiculous. But is it more ridiculous than assuming that someone saw something fanatical and it was a normal thing?

Absolutely.

Well, that's your opinion, and that's why we're having this show.

This is not an opinion. One is.

You have to operate within that is an opinion. And if anyone else would like to weigh in and give us their opinions. How can they tell us that, Greg? I don't know.

I don't know.

I don't want.

I'm not done talking. I feel like you did. This is all a big setup to get a rant out of me. Anyway, they can find us on Instagram. No such thing as Ghost Pod.

Correct.

They can reach out to us on Facebook. On Facebook. No such thing as ghosts.

Correct.

And then they can email us. No such thing as ghost podmail.com and.

All of these things. Please tell us where we're right, where we're wrong, what your opinions are, what your experiences are, where you lie in the fanatical or the. The weird science that, Greg, is not science is reality.

Also, we're going to be setting up a voicemail soon, so you will be.

Able to leave an extended message.

Leave a message and we'll. We'll play some of your stuff on the air. It could be a little bit harsh. I would ask you not to curse or be too.

We're trying to be family friendly, but.

We'll see how long that lasts.

Do some bleeping if we need to.

We have to do some strategic bleeping.

Be as free as you need to be, but, you know, give us your opinions. Yeah, give us your rants stories. If you want to go on a five minute rant like Greg does, hey, if you're a fan of that, do.

It, do it up. And yes, I might be a little harsh on some of the stories you tell me about certain things going on, but that's part of the deal. And I will be as respectful as possible. I'll poke the holes and Andy will probably believe everything you say.

If, if you think I'm too reasonable, if I'm too exaggerated on my beliefs.

I think he's just too accepting.

Accepting on these things. Let me know. Let's. We want to hear from you as much. We're going to have some, some fan based episodes.

Yeah. And we can't, we can't promise we're gonna play everything on the air. We can't promise that we're gonna apply to everything. But we will. What we can.

We will.

It works for the show. Also, go on itunes, leave a rating and review if it's not five stars. What?

Andy, we don't want it.

We don't want it. And I think that about does it for this episode.

I will see you you next time.